* antifuchs does not think that a part as sensitive as a colon should be too bold...
<cartan> on SunOS 5.7
<Fufie> oh.. bitchx.. I thought it was mirc
<rtoy> johs:  Thanks.
<johs> Fufie: Probably mIRC as well.
<amak> ->
* rtoy uses ChatZilla because he's too lazy to use any other client.
<cliini> The bold, underline and italic controls are somewhat older than mirc, with mirc came the full colour scale.
<Fufie> antifuchs: :p
<cartan> rtoy: xchat is easy and simple to install and use and setup
<amak> what's fuchs
<dan_b> I like ircii
<dan_b> well, at least it annoys me less than any other client I've found
<cartan> ugh
<cliini> I've actually implemented the former, but not the latter. I guess some channel I'm no longer on used it a bit.
<johs> dan_b: irssi is nice.
<johs> dan_b: And non-annoying.
<dan_b> it just sits there in the corner of the screen and doesn't distract me unless I want to be distracted
<rtoy> cartan:  I'm even too lazy to download and install xchat. :-)
<ingvar> amak: As a remporary work-around, try "<nick> : "
<amak> Fufie :
<ingvar> "temporary" even.
<cartan> rtoy: maybe a shell script with wget configure make and make install would do ;-)
<amak> yeah
<rtoy> cartan:  Too lazy to do even that.  Even if someone sent such a script to me. :-)
<cartan> okok, i won't 
<cliini> rtoy, that's mightily lazy. :)
<rtoy> I'd probably use emacs irc (whatever that's called) because after decades of emacs use, I can't help but enter emacs keystrokes everywhere.  Even Word.
<cartan> zenirc
<cartan> i used that before
<cliini> Considering that I wrote an irc client because I was annoyed at the choices, I guess I've used in excess of a hundred hours on this.
<johs> ERC is alright.
<dan_b> or erc I think is elisp
<amak> Vim + clisp
<johs> I like that you can use Emacs' search facilities in the IRC-buffer.
<cartan> unfortunately DCC send doesn't work from Emacs
<Krystof> bloody hell, how can you still be talking about IRC
* Krystof will ban _EVERYBODY_
<cartan> :))
<amak> i said i use Vim + Clisp
<johs> amak: Okay.
<cartan> amak: Unless you are the masochistic type you should rather switch to Emacs
<antifuchs> would IRC not be much better when implemented on the lisp machine?
<antifuchs> hahaha
<amak> cartan : for me Vim is the best editor
<johs> cartan: I think we can safely assume he is.
<cartan> amak: the question is: what is the best Lisp development environment
<amak> cartan : even for C/C++ is better than Kdevelop
<Krystof> no, bloody editor wars aren't kosher either
<amak> cartan : yes
<johs> Krystof: You're drunk with power.
<cliini> I think Dorai Sitaram uses vim for Lisp and "Lisp", so it must be usable.
<Krystof> me looks for the nuclear button
<cartan> Krystof: hey, I didn't say vi sucks, did I? ;-)
<cartan> i only thought that
<antifuchs> cartan: now you did. (:
<cartan> that was conjunctive
<johs> cliini: Are you saying Scheme is not a Lisp?
<cliini> johs, I'm giving you a benefit of doubt on what my opinion is.
<cliini> I'm not going to tell. :)
<rydis> Hmm. Is it friday already in other parts of the world as well?
<amak> Scheme is good for a start, it's good to educate son's
<johs> cliini: I think you're trying to start a Scheme is not Lisp-war!
<cliini> I'm a pacifist, and if you don't believe me, I'm going to beat you up.
<Fufie> rydis: people seem to behave as if it was friday
<rydis> (Here there is some "Christ Ascension Day" tomorrow, and friday is a 'tween-day, so most people won't work any more this week.)
<cartan> including me
<johs> I'm always behaving as if it was friday.
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<ingvar> Ah, Christ the Aviator. means LinCon is this weekend. Damned shame I'm not in .se.
<amak> hey all of you work with Lisp as a business tool? If yes, what is your business products?
<kmr_> hola!
<ingvar> I wonder if it's worth checking for cheapo flights?
<dan_b> dr rosenberg, i presume
<johs> amak: No, I only use it in an attempt to distinguish myself from the masses.
<amak> kmr_ : Hola, Espanhol?
<rydis> Gothenburg/London is dead cheap, at least.
<Krystof> GREENGROCER'S APOSTROPHE DETECTED
<kmr_> muy pocito
<Krystof> LOCK ON
<amak> johs : thats interesting
<Krystof> MISSILES LAUNCHED
<cliini> Krystof is going to go ballistic very soon if we continue to irritate him. :)
<ingvar> But since I'd want to end up in Linkoping, that'd be silly. Stansted-Nykpoing and train is a possibility, though.
<johs> Krystof: You mean missile's?
<Krystof> no, that's OK; I have to teach in half an hour -- enforced disconnect :)
<antifuchs> 's he? (:
<kmr_> dan_b: around?
<kmr_> oh, hi!
<kmr_> kevino rosenbergo, my latin persona
<amak> in my school has a IA group with an office, i entered there once, and seems to me that they were very lazy
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<kmr_> dan_b: I was concerned about documenting an unexported symbol in the asdf README file. What are your thoughts?
<dan_b> my thought is that the symbnol and its freind should both be exported
<dan_b> friend, either
<kmr_> okay, I can do that, if you like (and document the friend)
<Krystof> dan_b: I think there's some confusion over exports in sb-posix, too
<kmr_> whoops, got to go help the wife unload groceries
<Krystof> I thought that we would write sb-posix:open, not sb-posix::open
<dan_b> my longer-term thought is that the readme needs splitting up into multiple files to see if that will encourage people to read all of it instead of stopping after the first third and asking if there's any documentation
<Krystof> corollary: we might want an SB-POSIX-INTERFACE package (which can be :USEd) for things like SYSCALL-ERROR
* dan_b blinks
<Xach> dan_b: that could never happen
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<dan_b> i invoiced today for my first ever paid writing
<dan_b> I have to say, the return on writing for magazines may suck as a sensible source of income, but it's a lot nicer than writing documentation for free stuff
<Krystof> s/ stuff// :-)
<kmr_> dan_b: congrats
<dan_b> krystof: heh
<kmr_> dan_b: maybe rather than multiple documents, a single hyperlinked document with a table of contents
<cliini> Or a single text file with a generated TOC.
<Krystof> oh, how amusing.  If we changed the call protocol for more-args, we'd get dynamic-extent &rest lists for free
<cliini> (Easiest to get to from the present condition.)
<amak> i'm seeing a document that ranks the languages by they efficiency : 1º C 2º OCaml, 3º SML, 4º C++, 5º Common Lisp, 8º Java
<dan_b> I'm seeing a near-term future involving use of the ignore command
<varjag> efficiency of what?
<dan_b> or the kick command
<rtoy> Krystof: How so?
<dan_b> I'll take advice on this
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<amak> varjag speed,memory, line codes, and things we can do
<dan_b> oh?  so how do you write a c program that returns three values?
<dan_b> s/program/function
<antifuchs> call-by-ref
* cmm_wrk wonders if gratuitious language name dropping is punishable.  especially when non-ascii chars are used in between the language names
<antifuchs> ugh
<ingvar> "With difficulty"?
<pfdietz> dan_b: use a struct?
<Krystof> rtoy: must go; ask me again later/tomorrow
<rtoy> Ok.
<dan_b> pfdietz: and that will pass the returned values in registers?
<ingvar> I'd probably make the code depend on my llist.o lib and return a list of "things".
<cm> you can't return structs in C IIRC
<pfdietz> dan_b: sure, if you have a Sufficiently Smart Compiler. :)
<dan_b> pfdietz: running on a platform on which the abi requires such an SSC
<pfdietz> cm: you can.  You can't return (or pass) arrays.
<cm> right, remembered wrong then.
<dan_b> you can return structs in C.  I believe gcc with appropriate switches will actually do this register-based return, but afaik only for two-element structures
<varjag> amak: with such completely useless metric that document is only worth for wiping something
<rtoy> The sparc v9 abi requires struct return to be a register if the struct is 64-bits long or less.
<amak> varjag : yes
<johs> dan_b: You pass two of them as arguments and modify them in the function.
<johs> dan_b: No problem.
<johs> dan_b: You should've picked a harder example.
<dan_b> johs: uh, no.  if you're going to pass references, you need memory for them to refer to
<pfdietz> I don't like unnecessary call-by-reference.  It messes up alias analysis.
<dan_b> you can't have a pointer to a register
<amak> structs are in stack
<johs> dan_b: Okay, but my point is that this isn't exactly such a compelling reason to use Lisp instead of C.
<dan_b> no
<dan_b> but it is an example of a situation where c is not a paragon of efficiency
<dan_b> actually, granted, the whole aliasing problem is a much more compelling example
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<dan_b> anyone ranking languages by "efficiency"(sic) who leaves fortran out of the list probably has an agenda
<cliini> Forth!
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<johs> This looks like The Shootout.
<ingvar> What I always wonder when I see those lists is how much effort is needed to get the listed performance.
<johs> I'm guessing Fortran was left out because he didn't know it and/or nobody submitted Fortran-code.
<cartan> and they are all totally useless because all they do is benchmark 10 lines of code that does nothing interesting against each other
<johs> http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/
<ingvar> And (as always) it depends on what one is trying to do. For things like (say) computational chemistry I guess spending a week or five extra to squeeze all performance possible out of the code is worth it, even for one-off programs.
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<cliini> A consultant at work told a large audience how Fortran is no longer used and the audience yeah-yeahed him. Apparently no one else knew that in the very same building the most processor intensive programs of the nation are run daily, and they are in Fortran.
<johs> cartan: Would you say that if Lisp was on top, though? :)
<dan_b> hee hee.  flyer for some networking show
<cliini> But he was so stupid anyway I didn't feel like correcting him.
<cartan> johs: not say, only think :-)
<dan_b> "Come and find out how TBWA [...] turns brands into gold"
<cliini> (The weather simulations, in case anyone wants to know.)
<dan_b> clearly not a company who've applied any of this alchemy to their own brand ...
<ingvar> cliini: On VMS clusters?
<dan_b> the [...] said "(the agecny behind FCUK)"
<cliini> On some IBM clusters since 2001, I think.
<cliini> http://www.csc.fi/metacomputer/p690.html.en
<cliini> 37th on the list of computers of the world, by penis length.
<amak> what is ffi?
<ingvar> ?? ffi
<cartan> foreign function interface
<johs> amak: Foreign Function Interface, most likely.
<ingvar> "Foreign function interface"
<dan_b> fask fourier icecream
<dan_b> fast, even
<johs> Forsvarets Forskningsinstitutt.
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<cartan> fully fornicated inheritance
<amak> clisp dont support that?
<ingvar> johs; nah, they're FOI, IIRC.
<ingvar> Well, the .se version.
* ingvar missed the "tt" at the end.
<johs> ingvar: They're FFI here.
<cliini> I'm bad at north germanic, is -tt a Norwegian marker or something?
<ingvar> cliini: Dunno. "institutt" looks Norwegian to me.
<johs> Could be Danish, too.
<rydis> amak: clisp most certainly has some sort of FFI, being implemented in C and all. If they don't (which seems unlikely), just recompile it with your extensions.
<ingvar> I can't *base* it on anything though.
<ingvar> I also find spoken Norwegian sounding very cheerful and energetic.
<johs> (But then Norwegian is essentially Danish.)
<amak> ingvar : what this means -> det son engang var
<ingvar> johs: Though spoken norwegian tends to be easier to understand by a swede, whereas (in general) written danish is slightly easier to read than norwegian.
<rydis> amak: "What once were", probably.
<ingvar> amak: "What once were", looks like.
<amak> hmmmm
<johs> We don't understand spoken Danish either.
<amak> it was a guy called Varg Vikernes that told that
<johs> Noone does, I think, perhaps except a few Danes.
<johs> amak: Haha. Varg Vikernes, AKA Greven (The Count).
<amak> yeah that guy
<ingvar> I do, afgter getting over the initial chock of hearing Danish, but when I read philosophy at uni, there was a Dane in my class.
<johs> amak: (Now in jail for murder, if I'm not mistaken.)
<ingvar> "after".
<amak> johs : yes for killing his rival
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<manuel> hi
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<manuel__> arg :}
<cliini> The conversation has been fatally wounded, it seems.
<cliini> Assuming everyone is reading and waiting for a topic: there is at least one C header groveler in Lisp, to be used for simplifying foreign function practice. Where is it and does it work?
<M-x> there's c-parse by Moore, which you can find on CLiki
<dan_b> there's sb-grovel in sbcl contrib
<dan_b> there's ffigen in openmcl
<dan_b> do any of these work?  probably not
<cliini> Of course in practice they only need to work somewhat.
<M-x> ffigen seems to work quite well, though I haven't used it extensively. c-parse chokes on some wicked header files
<dan_b> who has managed to view rainer's home videos on linux, and what app were they using?
<M-x> oh, and there's a parser distributed with Corman CL
<manuel__> if it's mp4, mplayer should work
<cliini> I'll try, if I can download it.
<dan_b> *** FYI: This Quicktime file is using 1-bit RLE Animation
<dan_b> encoding, which is not yet supported by MPlayer. But if you upload
<dan_b> this Quicktime file to the MPlayer FTP, the team could look at it.
<cmm_wrk> dan_b: mplayer worked, kind of (ate the first 10 seconds or so)
<dan_b> I get the audio, though ...
<hefner> it had audio? =)
<manuel__> yup
<manuel__> funky german accent :)
<hefner> damn, now I have to download it again.
<cliini> Well, if you have a modern mplayer, I'm not going to win any more.
<hefner> (I was wondering why it was so big..)
<M-x> the audio was not very loud when I viewed it on MacOS X
<cliini> I'll get it anyway, in the hope of being able to view it somewhere.
<KingNato> There were two versions (of the latest one), only the second worked on Linux, IIRC.
<KingNato> Well, in MPlayer, anyway.
<cliini> Where's the second version?
<cliini> Rainer's www client detection code misdetects my browser. Ha.
<cliini> (It claims Mozilla, but this is Opera.)
* Yurik reviewed lisp machine video
<Yurik> cool :)
<KingNato> Someone mirrored the compatible version, but I don't recall who (antifuchs maybe? or gilberth?)
<dan_b> 3k a second?  oh, forget that
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<KingNato> eightjean mirrored it. http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/%7Elichtebl/lispm-1a.mov
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<dan_b> no, I must be missing a codec or something
<Xach> that quicktime is quite sexy
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<Xach> though a little weak in spots
<Xach> i can't wait for "lispm revolutions" in november
<jemfinch> what's that?
<manuel__> :}
<cliini> I have no codec for this.
<dan_b> google says 
<dan_b> videocodec qtrle
<dan_b>   info "Quicktime Animation (RLE)"
<dan_b>   status working
<dan_b> ; codec fourcc = "rle "
<dan_b>   format 0x20656C72
<dan_b>   driver qtrle
<dan_b>   out BGR32,BGR24
<KingNato> Xach: You mean when it turns out the Matrix is really running on an old Symbolics XL1200 with delusions of grandeur and the lack of security makes it child's play to turn it off?
<cliini> These spammers really do not know what they are doing. "Free Affordable Health Insurance Quotes"
<cliini> I don't even know what that means. :\
<cliini> I know the words, but their concatenation seems senseless to me.
<antifuchs> heh
<antifuchs> Xach: what is the lispm?
<cliini> I need a working whitelist mechanism.
<antifuchs> cliini: this means that somebody will tell you for free what you will have to pay after they tell you (:
<cliini> Maybe a combination of dan's idea and some preloaded whitelisted addresses would do it.
<lemonodor> you talking about rainer's lisp machine video?
<cliini> Yeah.
<lemonodor> i've got the non-MPEG 4 version, but it's 3 times as big.  and my connection is already beyond saturated.
<cliini> Hm. I could host it. :-)
<KingNato> I say we bittorrent it. :)
<lemonodor> KingNato: yeah, i'm looking into that.  though i think setting up a tracker and all is a little too involved for me to get to until tonight, at least.
* KingNato may be getting a 9Mbit/s upstream connection soonish
<cliini> I could probably even host all lemonodor multimegabyte stuff for Europe.
<KingNato> (Advertised as 9Mbit/s, anyway)
<cliini> It'd probably split the load in half.
<lemonodor> i should really move to a legitimate hosting situation some day.
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<dan-b> aha, xanim does the trick
<cliini> I've got some gigabytes in a well connected location (well connected for northern Europe at least. :)
<lemonodor> xanim works and mplayer doesn't?  i'm surprised.
<dan-b> trying to work out what mplayer is doing is basically impossible without four days reading the development list, afaics
<M-x> right, off to barcelona for the long weekend
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<antifuchs> m-x: you're probably going to bump into my boss.
<antifuchs> fine  coincidence (:
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<lemonodor> well, if someone wants to mirror the videos I can send them relatively quickly, i think.
<johs> dan-b: mplayer wouldn't play it for me either, but xine would.
<johs> It's not a supported codec in mplayer, apparently.
<antifuchs> lemonodor: I'm rsyncing already
<dan-b> afaict, mplayer has a codec for the general format but it doesn't cope with 1-bit movies specifically
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<dan-b> but as I say, it takes four days reading the mplayer list to work that out
<lispm-wim2> cliini: your Opera says it is a Mozilla...
<lispm-wim2> cliini: it is not even self respecting...
<Xach> i can mirror too
<Xach> ack, my copy is on the sleeping laptop
<Xach> antifuchs: do you have it in a public place?
<dan_b> now uploading to http://ftp.linux.org.uk/pub/lisp/Macivory.mov 
<cm> mmm lisp machine video
<cm> :O
<dan_b> that machine has a fair-sized connection to the world.  admittedly my cablemodem at hime doesn't, so it'll be a few minutesbefore it arrives there
* KingNato would bittorrent it but has only a private IP number
<antifuchs> Xach: in a few jiffies, yes.
<antifuchs> Xach: this ought to be behind a 10MBit line in austria. let's see if it's actually working better (;
<Xach> got 'em
<aph> hmm
<antifuchs> hmm, 4 mbyte are over there already...
<aph> shouldn't the deiban cmucl-small pkg depend on the cmucl pkg with the exact same version?
<aph> I've got cmucl-small 3.1.7 and cmucl 3.1.4 installed, and it's doing evil things
<lemonodor> so let me know if you've got a mirror that you don't mind my linking to from lemonodor.
<lispm-wim2> he, lemonodor, you had some downloads? ;-)
<cliini> Hm, true, Opera does claim to be Mozilla.
<lemonodor> lispm-wim2: yeah, a few. :)
<cliini> I'm trying to figure out how to mirror only the large bits. :)
<lispm-wim2> cliini: even my Internet Explorer on my Mac thinks it is a Mozilla ;-)
<cliini> Maybe that's a losing battle.
<lispm-wim2> lemonodor, your site seems to be quite popular ;-)
<dan_b> ok, http://ftp.linux.org.uk/pub/lisp/ has a copy that ought to be respectably fast from many places
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* dan_b wonders if he should have asked rainer before mirroring :-)
<dan_b> what's the license conditions?  is it dfsg-free?
<lispm-wim2> haha, I is only allowed to be mirrored by Lisp sites, or sites written in Lisp ;-)
<lispm-wim2> it is
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<dan_b> ftp.linux.org.uk is a cclan mirror, if that qualifies
<lispm-wim2> okay ;-)
<dan_b> the point is, I don't pay for its bandwidth.  ww.telent.net I do
<aph> oic, I think cmucl-small is going away
<dan_b> I guess I could give it an A record in cclan.net or whatever vanity domain I blagged for that project
* Xach works for an ISP and gets to use a bit of bandwidth on the side if it's not too obtrusive
<antifuchs> http://asf.void.at/misc/rainer-lisp-machine-3.mov has another, just in case you manage to fill up ftp.linux.org.uk's pipe (:
<manuel__> has somebody used applescript from mcl 5?
<cliini> Has somebody managed to get unicode output on CLX/something on top of CLX?
<cliini> Properly, I mean. :-)
<cliini> If not, I'll have a look at using Pango from CLX, which will be painful.
<antifuchs> "It /is/ correct. If perl doesn't complain when I activate the 'strict' pragma, it works."
<KingNato> cliini: Zhivago did strange characters in McCLIM, but I don't know whether that was the CLX back end, or even if it was unicode.
<KingNato> antifuchs: That's the definition for perl, isn't it?
<antifuchs> KingNato: probably was CLX, dunno if it was unicode...
<cliini> I'll have to talk to him when we manage to hit a simultaneous wake cycle.
<hefner> all Zhivago's McCLIM hacks are surrounded by #+unicode, so..
<KingNato> cliini: Imagine if the globe was flat, it would all be much easier. :)
<cliini> Knowing him I'd guess it's Unicode, but I have no clue whether it's properly done. Probably not, actually. He didn't seem too interested in the graphics side of Unicode.
<cliini> If you just assume each character will get a glyph from some random font, you'll not get good marks from me. :)
<cliini> I wrote code for that myself, it took me five minutes. :)
<lemonodor> phew, i finally am getting sub-second ping times to lemonodor.com now.
<lemonodor> thanks, guys.
<antifuchs> heh
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<lispm-wim2> lemonodor, ever heard of a tool called audacity?
<cliini> KingNato, given that two people on the planet are interested in free lisps and unicode simultaneously, it is only logical that they live 12 time zones apart.
<lemonodor> lispm-wim2: no, what is it?
<Krystof> xanim, in case anyone's still wondering
<cliini> It has a positive side: it significantly diminishes the time we have to get on each other's nerves.
<lispm-wim2> lemonodor, apparently it is an editor for audio files, a new version just has been published also for Mac OS X
<Krystof> but it was larger than my laptop screen
<Krystof> I've used audacity
<Krystof> I wasn't terribly impressed
<lispm-wim2> lemonodor, it now uses Nyquist, a Lisp-written lib
<Krystof> (but then, I was trying to edit 30 minutes of 44kHz 16-bit stereo, and this was a while ago)
<hefner> I've never seen a decent audio editor that runs on any kind of unix. It is mind-boggling that someone hasn't come up with one.
<lispm-wim2> lemonodor, I checked the Mac version and it has XLisp inside.
<hefner> (well, a free audio editor at least)
<lispm-wim2> lemonodor, even comes with some Lisp scripts...
<dan_b> I've never seen a decent diagram editor that runs on unix, since xfig
<lambda> dia?
<dan_b> sucked, last time I tried it
<dan_b> xfig has never crashed on me
<manuel__> dan_b: omnigraffle?
* manuel__ hides
<antifuchs> hmm.
<dan_b> oh, I have to pay money for it?  bah
<Krystof> I wouldn't call xfig a decent diagram editor
<Xach> it is suitable only for editing indecent diagrams
<Krystof> sure, it's a good advert for the "X is not slow, idiots" propaganda campaign
<Krystof> but usable? Not really
<cliini> I have yet to see a decent diagram editor for any platform.
<dan_b> UI is not xfig's strong point, i concede
<cliini> Maybe my employer is just being thrifty.
<azu> xfig's UI is weird, but I find it faster to use than anything else
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<dan_b> ah, this all reminds me, the time of year to start fiddling with presentatin software is fast approaching
<cliini> Actually we're only 7 time zones apart.
<Xach> cliini: i've heard raves about visio from UI curmudgeons...never used it myself, though
<hefner> cliini: does that mean there is another 1.42 persons interesting in unicode and free CLs lurking out there somewhere? =p
<cliini> Visio sucks warm puke through a short straw.
<dan_b> visio is fine up to a point
<cliini> Yes, the point is reached 30 seconds into a Visio session.
<Xach> Tell us how you really feel about it!
<cliini> Admittedly, some diagramming tools are worse. :)
<dan_b> but after that point it suddenly drops off at a near-vertical angle
<dan_b> reminds me of m4 in a way
<cliini> hefner, must be, and by the distribution it seems that she must be in Brazil or Venezuela.
<cliini> The 0.42 is a gifted 8-year old font designer who's her child.
<cliini> Mathematics is useful, sometimes, you get to figure out things like this. ;-)
<antifuchs> haha!
<antifuchs> visio!
* antifuchs has visio experiences.
<antifuchs> not experience (;
<cliini> Tell me more about your Visio experiences.
* KingNato wonders if closure would work in MCL/CLIM
<antifuchs> hmmm. there was this very long visio session, in which I drew out most of the design for our project... I saved regularly, knowing that this was windows and that my sound card (haha) was flaky, and caused a few reboots here and now (and you know what happened next).
<Krystof> dan_b: before you spend too much time fiddling with presentation software, iirc we still have yet to release a clx that works with threads
<antifuchs> one moment I was using visio and listening to already-depressing music, the next: insta-reboot. I let it boot, knowing that the last save was only a few minutes ago.
<antifuchs> what I didn't know was that visio keeps a lock in its files and tells you that it "can not open file because another visio process is using it".
<hefner> antifuchs: at which point you tossed the computer out the window?
<antifuchs> repeat two more times. I drew it a third time in dia (:
<antifuchs> hefner: I'm a patient guy (:
<antifuchs> hefner: I put on some more depressing music (on the cd player, this time) and started again. the machine rebooted again (:
<cliini> "It is obviously Allah's will that I throw the Unix box out the window. I submit to the will of Allah."
<Krystof> and even iidnrc we have yet to release a clx which doesn't have deadlocks in its font code
<antifuchs> cliini: oh yes, absolutely.
<cliini> I use Windows at work, as it's policy. I try to take the philosophical attitude: if it breaks, I'm getting paid ridiculously well to drink coffee as the techie attempts to fix it in vain, finally sending it to be reinstalled.
<antifuchs> hmm, I was thinking about weird-irc lately.
<cliini> This has happened multiple times, and I've been working there for only about a year now.
<antifuchs> cliini: sounds like a good attitude (:
<KingNato> Our policy at work is, if it breaks, you better weld the pieces back together yourself.
* KingNato likes that policy, because his Debian installation doesn't break much
<cliini> That was the policy at my previous place of employment, which also said that you can run anything you like on the hardware you can find or coax the management into buying.
<cm> dan-b: where did you upload that movie again?
<cliini> For some reason it still degenerated into some Debians minded by Juri and me, and Solarises taken care of by the CEO. :-)
<KingNato> I was out-located to a customer for two months, where we had to run Windows, so I installed an X server and ran everything on the Solaris development box. That was painful, but less painful than Windows.
<dan_b> cm: http://ftp.linux.org.uk/pub/lisp/
* KingNato probably needs to come to terms with Windows, but would like to delay this as long as possible
<cliini> Hm, I thought I might be able to use the Pango XFT renderer to render to memory, but the renderer still needs its own X connection.
<cliini> There is going to be suffering here. :(
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<cliini> Am I insane if I combine a Forth system with GTK, Pango and the works, and then run this as a separate process and feed dynamical Forth to it from my Lisp? :)
<hefner> cliini: probably, but much cooler than using C as the glue code =)
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<hefner> just don't expect anyone else to ever get it to work.
<cliini> I'd rather toggle the bits with Forth than C any day of the week.
<d-bugd> i bet Yoda would love Forth :)
<lambda> love it he would ;)
<hefner> hehe
<antifuchs> hmmmmm.
<antifuchs> I wonder if weird-irc can be made to output stuff in a table-like fashion.
<hefner> antifuchs: what kind of stuff? CLIM does tables.
<antifuchs> hefner: IRC messages.
<antifuchs> hefner: I hate it when IRC messages look as ugly as they do in weird-irc when they wrap...
<antifuchs> time stamps should be in a column of their own; so should nick names and the messages.
<hefner> no one else seemed to think it was a good idea when I suggested adding a seperate left margin for text. But I think that would be handy, to stop messages from wrapping around directly underneath the name.
<antifuchs> well, it'd be all perfect if one could put each irc message in a table row
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<antifuchs> I think...
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<cliini> I'm confusing xft and ft2 again, of course it is ft2 I need to use if I want to render to memory.
<cliini> Maybe I can forget the Forth. :)
<cm> dan_b: thanks. is that rainer guy also here in #lisp?
* dan_b points at lispm
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<cm> kewl
<cm> impressive
<lemonodor> i think it would be great if someone could annotate the lisp machine video in some detail; there's a lot going on that isn't necessarily very clear unless you're pretty familiar with the foreign-to-most-people software concepts.
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<water> popup bubbles? ;)
<lemonodor> heh.  sure.
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<lispm-wim2> lemonodor, the video has sound ;-) although not very loud and with a german accent ;-)
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<cliini> I'll try shocking people at work by playing it very loud.
<lispm-wim2> don't ;-)
<cm> "und jetzt.. and now" :)
<cliini> Their "music" tends to be worse.
<emu> the problems is that an extremely loud Mac `bleep' happens every so often
<KingNato> We could make a techno remix.
<lispm-wim2> right ;-)
<KingNato> The anti-"free software song". ;)
<cm> lol
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> I would prefer giving it a Borg-ish sound. But perhaps we could save that for a McCLIM video.
<kmr_> lispm-wim2: hi, enjoyed your video
<hefner> lispm, you're a star!
<kmr_> I was inquiring with dks about buying a macivory system. currently, he is out of adb converters for symbolic keyboards. do you use an apple or symbolics kb?
<water> symbolics
<lispm-wim2> I use a symbolics keyboard
<water> the apple keyboard has much less bandwidth
<kmr_> right, that's what I thought from the web page.
<water> there'd almost be no point
<kmr_> i told dks that I likely wasn't interested without symbolics keyboard.
<lispm-wim2> the extended apple keyboard with a logitech 3 button mouse works fine, though.
<kmr_> it's about an environmental experience, more than anything else for me.
<hefner> IMHO the thing that kills you is not the keyboard but the mice. I've never been able to get a 3 button mouse to work with mine.
<hefner> (probably I just need to find the right kind)
<lispm-wim2> there is also a Symbolics keyboard overlay for the Apple Extended keyboard
<kmr_> right, dks mentioned that.
<lispm-wim2> guys, the logitech 3 button mouse works really fine on the Macivory
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<lispm-wim2> the Mac version that is
<kmr_> i'll keep logitech in mind, but likely won't do anything unless I can get a symbolics kb.
<lispm-wim2> most people use the apple keyboard, since the symbolics keyboard is a bit expensive...
<alexshendi> 'Hi
<lispm-wim2> it's worth it, but you can live without it.
<lispm-wim2> well, almost
<kmr_> lispm-wim2: thanks for the feedback/insight
* Xach searches for symbolics items on ebay and finds: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3610377826&category=3789
<hefner> ...
<hefner> people are trying to sell free software on ebay now?
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<KingNato> hefner: People have been selling free software for a long time, why not on ebay?
<alexshendi> 'What's for sale exactly?
<emu> maxim
<emu> a
<tsuru> looks like they are selling the labor of putting openoffice and Maxima on cd 
<water> it looks overpriced
<wholok> looks like he's also selling gimp for windows on a cd, touted as "photoshop compatible"
<wholok> 4 pages of auctions, no bids
<hefner> Anyone else see red when they encounter listings with "L@@K!!!" in the title?
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<alexshendi> Naah, that's 31337
<hefner> One of these days I'm going to register a new id, "Just L@@KING", and bid on all that crap without paying for it
<tsuru> I think that goes to my Sp@m folder
<cliini> My Pango example does not even compile. This is not my day.
<cliini> Including the header is a failure.
<cliini> This is not exactly raising my opinion on the C crowd.
* antifuchs has seen people try to sell windows "New Folder"s (unused, excellent condition) {::
<hefner> hahahah
<cm> :)
<alexshendi> ^-^
<tsuru> well...someone got away with selling a Maya Nurbs Sphere script for $20... if you have A|w Maya you just have to press a button to get one...most successful 'scam' I've seen yet
<alexshendi> :thinks "Interesting stuff:)"
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<cliini> Hm, with sufficient thrust, even the pig flew.
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<antifuchs> hmmm, is there a protocol in clim which allows sticking table rows onto an existing table?
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<antifuchs> formatting-row says: "This must be used inside of formatting-table, and in conjunction with formatting-cell."
> Yes, these must nest properly.
<antifuchs> hmmm.
* hefner is afraid to update his McCLIM tree
<antifuchs> so sticking rows onto a table after it was "created" (?) isn't supposed to work?
> It should work. (Just a sec .. another commit coming along)
> So that was it for now.
<antifuchs> ah (:
> antifuchs: You say that (formatting-table (t) (formatting-row (t) (formatting-cell (t) (princ "hi"] does not work?
<antifuchs> gilberth: no, that's not it (:
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> Okay then I was not listening ...
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<antifuchs> gilberth: I wanted to modify weird-irc's with-output-as-irc-message macro (which gets called from event handling present methods from time to time) to put messages into a formatting table.
<hefner> the thing I love about updating from CVS is how it points out all those little n,p, and v characters that make their way into my buffers when I'm trying to move around.
<hefner> (thanks, emacs!)
> Hmm, for weird-irc I suggest using the pretty printer :)
<antifuchs> gilberth: dunno, I had actually wanted the nicks etc. to align and adjust (;
> Yeah okay, but how exactly do you add rows? How do you get hold of the table? Do you use incremental redisplay?
* antifuchs doesn't get a hold of the table, right now (:
> hmm
<antifuchs> ah, that might work...
<antifuchs> hmmm.
<hefner> you forego tables entirely, and bind the (nonexistant) left-margin to the current cursor X after drawing the nick, to control the wrapping of the text. =)
> Isn't with-indention working?
<hefner> heh
<antifuchs> hmm.
<hefner> I wrote that, didn't I? =)
<antifuchs> was my first thought too, but I want behaviour like xchat's (;
> Bah! find is slow. I once hacked a mockup for a more pretty irc log using the pretty printer.
> I want a file system which maintains a full text index ...
<antifuchs> ha, that might work (:
<cliini> Yes! I have pango-drawn text!
> The pretty printer even can do folding of lines.
> cliini: Where do you have it?
> CLIM has folding also doesn't it?
<cliini> On the window of my program.
> Yes, and which program is that?
<cliini> A test program I just wrote to see if I can get this to work.
<cliini> It does not do anything else.
> There it is ...
<cliini> I'm a tools programmer, I implement unicode stuff. :-)
<antifuchs> hmm, that could just work (:
<cliini> Unicode is not much fun if you can't get it on screen.
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<cliini> I can implement a unicode-enabled irc client if that makes you happy. :-)
<antifuchs> hmm, weird-boinkor is not a happy lisper.
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<cliini> I'll go away and think about a user targeted program that somehow uses unicode for something.
<vuori> How about an irc client (-;
> antifuchs: You might be able to borrow some ideas from http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/flux/fold.lisp
<antifuchs> thanks!
<cliini> An irc client would be in character.
> Unfortunately my pretty printer lacks tabbing support (= ~20T kinda stuff) :-/
> cliini: In what surrounding do you use Pango. Some kind of gtk bindings?
<cliini> From CLX.
> antifuchs: As you can see it assumes a IrcII style log in /home/gilbert :)
<antifuchs> mhm, I see.
<antifuchs> hmm.
> cliini: Cool. So we might be able to borrow :)
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<cliini> I use Pango to render to memory with the FT2 renderer, and stuff the bits to the screen with CLX.
<cliini> But this needs a lot of work. :)
> antifuchs: I can give you a snipset to play with.
> cliini: I have to code to blitter antialiased via XRender.
<antifuchs> heh (: